Go Big or Go Home: Clay's 914-6, MS3Pro Wiring in Progress Options

[Literati914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)


.

[ClayPerrine]

Today's progress...




There is a big hole behind the original fan location. So I am going to have to make a block off plate for it.

After the picture, I made the holes in the shroud for the wiring for the two knock sensors. They are the same size as the holes in the original 964 fan shroud, so I can use the original grommet setup.

[wonkipop]

do you have to do firewall mods for the alternator position?

engine looks horn. you almost want a circular hole cut in the engine lid to cop an eyeful of that fan like the old 917s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[mepstein]

do you have to do firewall mods for the alternator position?

engine looks horn. you almost want a circular hole cut in the engine lid to cop an eyeful of that fan like the old 917s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

I had a Paxton supercharger for my 3.2 but gave it up when I realized it would hit the 914 firewall.

[technicalninja]

Just read through whole thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_flagge6.gif)

You have a Unicorn Wife! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif)

The comment "Literally off the road" rolled me out of my chair laughing...

Way cool car!

Where's the compressor going?
I was SO happy when you chose to NOT drive it off the PS drive sprocket. That spot is a BITCH to get to on a 964. It would be easier in a 914 but still damn tight.

That MS3 pro has the ability to drive a PWM compressor!
I'm going to have to get one for my 75 for that reason alone.

Are you going to have enough room for a top mount condenser?
The current fan mounted directly underneath the spot appears to be of adequate size. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Might not even need a shroud...

I've had excellent results using this line of condenser. They have multiple sizes available.
https://www.oldairproducts.com/product/cond...overall-11-1424

All the little holes give you unlimited mounting options and the mounting hardware has proven nicely adaptable. They come with little stainless "straps" that can be bent so the mounting is both rigid but has enough flex to allow for expansion across the core.

These folks are my "go-to" for hose and fittings.

https://coldhose.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_eL...ASAAEgIZIvD_BwE

The only type I use now is what they call "reduced barrier"

It's smaller and more flexible than standard barrier hose and only slightly more expensive.

I have a Mastercool hydraulic hose crimper that will be available to you if you don't have one. SO MUCH easier than manual crimpers...
https://www.mastercool.com/product/71500/

Looking forward to meeting both you and you wife soon.

Rick

[worn]

Today's progress...




There is a big hole behind the original fan location. So I am going to have to make a block off plate for it.

After the picture, I made the holes in the shroud for the wiring for the two knock sensors. They are the same size as the holes in the original 964 fan shroud, so I can use the original grommet setup.

Wow. And a clean car too! Yep. Envy.

[ClayPerrine]

do you have to do firewall mods for the alternator position?

engine looks horn. you almost want a circular hole cut in the engine lid to cop an eyeful of that fan like the old 917s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

I am using coil on plug, so there is no distributor. The alternator will be placed lower, down where the distributor is located, to clear the firewall.

I have a GT engine lid, so the fan will be visible through it. My only worry is getting something sucked into the fan while running it when working on it.

[ClayPerrine]

Just read through whole thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_flagge6.gif)

You have a Unicorn Wife! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif)

The comment "Literally off the road" rolled me out of my chair laughing...

Way cool car!

Where's the compressor going?
I was SO happy when you chose to NOT drive it off the PS drive sprocket. That spot is a BITCH to get to on a 964. It would be easier in a 914 but still damn tight.

That MS3 pro has the ability to drive a PWM compressor!
I'm going to have to get one for my 75 for that reason alone.

Are you going to have enough room for a top mount condenser?
The current fan mounted directly underneath the spot appears to be of adequate size. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Might not even need a shroud...

I've had excellent results using this line of condenser. They have multiple sizes available.
https://www.oldairproducts.com/product/cond...overall-11-1424

All the little holes give you unlimited mounting options and the mounting hardware has proven nicely adaptable. They come with little stainless "straps" that can be bent so the mounting is both rigid but has enough flex to allow for expansion across the core.

These folks are my "go-to" for hose and fittings.

https://coldhose.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_eL...ASAAEgIZIvD_BwE

The only type I use now is what they call "reduced barrier"

It's smaller and more flexible than standard barrier hose and only slightly more expensive.

I have a Mastercool hydraulic hose crimper that will be available to you if you don't have one. SO MUCH easier than manual crimpers...
https://www.mastercool.com/product/71500/

Looking forward to meeting both you and you wife soon.

Rick

Rick,

The compressor is going in the front trunk. It is an electric compressor, so all the plumbing will be contained up front. I am going with a 250 amp alternator to make sure I have enough juice to run it. A big battery cable will run to the compressor controller, and it will be tied into the ECU to insure the engine idles up under the additional alternator load.

I have a parallel flow condenser for the front trunk, and I am thinking of adding a smaller one on the outlet side to provide some initial temperature drop of the refrigerant. I know the location is not ideal, but my engine compartment is really crowded. If my math is correct, the ratio of condenser to evaporator should be correct. And I am going to put a really big fan (or multiple fans) on the condenser, and make sure there is a low pressure area behind the condenser outlet.


And I have something for you...

[ClayPerrine]

Wow. And a clean car too! Yep. Envy.

It still needs LOTS of additional cleaning before I put the motor back in. I am also going to pull the trailing arms and fix the park brake setup. The park brake was installed a long time ago, and at the time I didn't realize I needed a stop block for the shoes. So I am pulling the trailing arms and fixing that too. I also have a potential new way of actuating the park brake, so I will be documenting that too.

[technicalninja]

Ohh, happy day!
You have the unicorn part I need!

Ratio of condenser to evaporator is engineering gobbly-gook as far ss I'm concerned.

There appears to be zero downside to having too much condenser...

It just makes everything work easier-better.

Your suggestion of "just running two condensers" was a slap in the face for me.

I thought "Duh, you moron, so easy and someone else had to tell me something I already knew."
Dual, in series, condensers KICK ASS!

Above the engine, with the airflow that the engine fan requires, is an excellent idea IMO.

You have a billy bad-assed fan in the correct location as it sits...

Too bad you're not going to have AC stuff back there. It would vastly simplify everything to keep it all up front and not clutter up the masterpiece you're installing so I understand "why".
I'm VERY interested in the ac system you have designed. If you can do it with a standard charging system (250 amps 12V is still "standard" in my book) and not require a 600-volt battery make it all the easier. Your alternator will require it's own cooling system I believe.

I've always thought running a Prius AC system (with the big battery and all) would be a good option for a "pro-mod" car. The late model Cadillac Escalade Hybrid uses one of those, completely divorced from the engine, mounted on the right fenderwell.
It takes longer to cool the big beast down but those will kick 35 degrees out of the vents and a normal one is lucky to hit 42. The one that I have messed with was black and it was a 100+ degree day. Worked far better than I expected.

Shoot me a link/info on your electronic compressor.
"Enquiring minds want to know!"
Most electronic compressors REQUIRE special di-electric oil and Toyota suggests replacement of everything the refrigerant touches for an oil contamination issue.
The whole enchilada, 6k plus...

One last thought- a finned discharge line with proper airflow can add additional cooling as can a secondary cooler (modern 1234 systems have this).

Now, I'm even more interested in meeting you.
Thanks
Rick

[hencar]

Great work Clay. Thanks for sharing.

Henry

[mepstein]

Today's progress...




There is a big hole behind the original fan location. So I am going to have to make a block off plate for it.

After the picture, I made the holes in the shroud for the wiring for the two knock sensors. They are the same size as the holes in the original 964 fan shroud, so I can use the original grommet setup.

Does the alternator clear the firewall?

[rick 918-S]

Love that fan shroud (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif)

[Spoke]

While we have this downtime, I am finally getting something done on my car. The oil system is pulled apart to add a thermostat, but I am stuck because I am waiting on, of all things, a drill bit. I need a 20.5mm bit to fix some fittings with messed up threads. Yes, I realize that is a 13/16 bit, but everything is closed on Easter Sunday.

So yesterday I started to tear into another issue. My LED front lights act weird. If you turn on the turn signal or flashers, the white LEDs flash. If you turn on the park lights, the yellow LEDs come on. If you turn on the park lights when the white LEDs are flashing, the yellow lights come on, and the white lights stop working. Considering how custom my wiring harness is, I figured it was something in the wiring causing it.
I tore the knee pad off, dropped the fuse box, pulled the gauge cluster, and pulled both the light switch and the hazard switch out so I could get to the wires.

No matter what I did, I could not find a reason for the problem. I finally broke down and pulled the LED board out of the right signal pod. I made a test rig to hook it to an old Radio Shack 110V AC to 12V DC converter.

I get the exact same results when on the test rig. White lights on, hook Yellow lights to the 12v power and the white lights go out. Remove the power to the Yellow lights, and the white lights come back on. But there is a delay before the white lights come back on, about 2 to 3 seconds, kinda like a capacitor charging.

The other thing I noticed is the jumper pads on the back of the board. There are three pads, labeled "US", "Euro" and "Blanking".

Mine has the "Blanking" one soldered.

I looked at Betty's 914, and the Six, both of which have the same LED boards. Bot of those have the jumper on "US" because they are US spec lights. Mine are Euro spec lenses, so I would assume they need to be on the "Euro" setting.

Can anyone with Euro Spokeworks LED boards check and see if the pad should be on "Euro"?





Thanks!

@ClayPerrine

I like to stay on top of things and make sure all my LEDs work for folks. So this one is only 3 years old... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I'm hoping it's all worked out for you.

For your front turnsignals, I was offering 'Euro' which would act like the original Euro lights where the white lights stayed on with turnsignals. The 'Blanking' you have was an upgrade like modern cars where the white running lights turn off with turnsignals on that side for better contrast.

I don't do the 'Euro' front turnsignals any longer. All boards have white LEDs blank out with turnsignals.

[Spoke]

@ClayPerrine
@mepstein

Would this flat alternator belt work on a 911? I have the high output alternator with standard V-belt and was wondering if the flat belt with tensioner would be better.

[ClayPerrine]

@ClayPerrine
@mepstein

Would this flat alternator belt work on a 911? I have the high output alternator with standard V-belt and was wondering if the flat belt with tensioner would be better.

Jerry,

Yes, the serpentine belt conversion will work with the high output alternator. Clewett engineering even makes an underdrive belt kit to increase the fan/alternator speed.

Here's the link to their page: https://www.clewett.com/index.php?main_page...ex&cPath=60

Clewett's kits were designed for the 911, and the tensioner had to be slightly modified for use with a 914. I know there was a recent thread on it, but I don't have it handy. The tensioner attaches to the 911 motor mount on a part that is not present in the 914 motor mount. Clewett redesigned the tensioner, and I have not seen the new design, so that may not be true any more.

I hope that helps.

[ClayPerrine]

While we have this downtime, I am finally getting something done on my car. The oil system is pulled apart to add a thermostat, but I am stuck because I am waiting on, of all things, a drill bit. I need a 20.5mm bit to fix some fittings with messed up threads. Yes, I realize that is a 13/16 bit, but everything is closed on Easter Sunday.

So yesterday I started to tear into another issue. My LED front lights act weird. If you turn on the turn signal or flashers, the white LEDs flash. If you turn on the park lights, the yellow LEDs come on. If you turn on the park lights when the white LEDs are flashing, the yellow lights come on, and the white lights stop working. Considering how custom my wiring harness is, I figured it was something in the wiring causing it.
I tore the knee pad off, dropped the fuse box, pulled the gauge cluster, and pulled both the light switch and the hazard switch out so I could get to the wires.

No matter what I did, I could not find a reason for the problem. I finally broke down and pulled the LED board out of the right signal pod. I made a test rig to hook it to an old Radio Shack 110V AC to 12V DC converter.

I get the exact same results when on the test rig. White lights on, hook Yellow lights to the 12v power and the white lights go out. Remove the power to the Yellow lights, and the white lights come back on. But there is a delay before the white lights come back on, about 2 to 3 seconds, kinda like a capacitor charging.

The other thing I noticed is the jumper pads on the back of the board. There are three pads, labeled "US", "Euro" and "Blanking".

Mine has the "Blanking" one soldered.

I looked at Betty's 914, and the Six, both of which have the same LED boards. Bot of those have the jumper on "US" because they are US spec lights. Mine are Euro spec lenses, so I would assume they need to be on the "Euro" setting.

Can anyone with Euro Spokeworks LED boards check and see if the pad should be on "Euro"?





Thanks!

@ClayPerrine

I like to stay on top of things and make sure all my LEDs work for folks. So this one is only 3 years old... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I'm hoping it's all worked out for you.

For your front turnsignals, I was offering 'Euro' which would act like the original Euro lights where the white lights stayed on with turnsignals. The 'Blanking' you have was an upgrade like modern cars where the white running lights turn off with turnsignals on that side for better contrast.

I don't do the 'Euro' front turnsignals any longer. All boards have white LEDs blank out with turnsignals.

Yes, it did. I had the boards wired backwards, with the yellow lights on as the running lights and the white lights as the turn signals. Once I switched them, they worked fine.

Thanks for checking up on me.

Clay

[Maltese Falcon]

do you have to do firewall mods for the alternator position?

engine looks horn. you almost want a circular hole cut in the engine lid to cop an eyeful of that fan like the old 917s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

I am using coil on plug, so there is no distributor. The alternator will be placed lower, down where the distributor is located, to clear the firewall.

I have a GT engine lid, so the fan will be visible through it. My only worry is getting something sucked into the fan while running it when working on it.

Clay; you should be good to go with the gt engine lid keeping 99% of debris from sucking into the fan while under way. Working in the engine bay while it's running; don't wear loose fitting long sleeve shirt, keep anyone with long hair away from looking over the fan, and no loose shop rags left near the fan. Dirt and gravel roads tend to throw debris up from below and suck back into the fan downdraft. When parked (not running) you might want to make a simple plexi disc to cover the top of fan housing...I've seen several displayed on 917's at Rennsport 7.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/marty914.jpg)

[Maltese Falcon]

Clay, we might have spoke about this; but make sure that this alum breather tube is tightly in place.
On the factory flat fan units these have been known to work loose (pressed fit) and you risk major oil loss during competition ! I've run a thick bead of JB weld around the base of the alum tube for extra safety & keep on my check list.

[Spoke]

@ClayPerrine
@mepstein

Would this flat alternator belt work on a 911? I have the high output alternator with standard V-belt and was wondering if the flat belt with tensioner would be better.

Jerry,

Yes, the serpentine belt conversion will work with the high output alternator. Clewett engineering even makes an underdrive belt kit to increase the fan/alternator speed.

Here's the link to their page: https://www.clewett.com/index.php?main_page...ex&cPath=60

Clewett's kits were designed for the 911, and the tensioner had to be slightly modified for use with a 914. I know there was a recent thread on it, but I don't have it handy. The tensioner attaches to the 911 motor mount on a part that is not present in the 914 motor mount. Clewett redesigned the tensioner, and I have not seen the new design, so that may not be true any more.

I hope that helps.

@ClayPerrine

Thanks Clay. I reached out to Clewett to see which kit would work with my '86 930 turbo. I don't like the tensioned V-belt with the high output alternator. Plus the high output alternator has to spin at a higher minimum speed than the OEM alternator else it won't generate enough voltage to keep the system voltage above 13V.